What is the difference between the later poems and homer's iliad?

G

Gaboraa

New Member
Hello I am new here and want to say hello to all the fellow mythology lovers!

I have some questions and here they are:

What is the difference between the later poems such as Cypria and The sack of troy and Homer's Iliad's cause of Trojan war?

I was told that they are different but in what respect?

Quotation from the book of Michael Wood's "IN SEARCH OF THE TROJAN WAR"

Homer does not deal with the judgement of Paris, theme of so much later art. His tale is simple and quite realistic. Paris goes on a visit to Sparta and is feasted by Menelaos in his richly adorned palace at Amyklai. On the tenth day of the celebrations, Menelaos has to leave for Crete...

Is this homer's version or this is belong to the later poems? Just only homer doesn't narrate the judgement of paris and afterwards are the same?

I am in need of some explanation here and I would be happy if I could find an answer to this questions.
 
fibi ducks

fibi ducks

Active Member
Hi Gaboraa, welcome. I think I get your question and its a pretty in depth one... You're asking whether the text of the Iliad backs up the story of the judgement of paris causing the war? Or whether it gives some other account?

Homer doesn't give a straight up account of the judgement of paris in the Iliad.
I think that the judegement of paris gets only one mention in the Iliad. (I can't remember where it is).
And none of the story of how Helen got to Troy is told as part of the straightforward narrative of the Iliad. But there are scenes where Helen talks about her life. I think there's something of the background story comes through here. (And by the way, I think my favourite part of the book is the scene of Paris being back in his bed while the battle rages outisde, and Helen berates him).

your quote: "Paris goes on a visit to Sparta..."
I think this is not a part of the iliad. At least its not part of the straightforward narrative. Perhaps its the Cypria.

I would love to know whether the iliad and the other poems give different causes for the war. as far as i know there is a consensus that it was the judgement of paris that caused it. i didn't know that the other poems you mention are later then the iliad. i thought they were all roughly contemporary - and were collectively known as the "Epic Cycle". I do believe that all of these poems were more or less composed from a great body of stories that existed before any of them were written down at this or that poem. So which one was composed earlier may not mean anything in terms of its reliability. And the Iliad may assume as common knowledge the story of the judegement of Paris even though the poem of the Cypria had not then been written. And of course there may have been conflicting accounts before any of these poems were written.
 
G

Gaboraa

New Member
Thank you so much! You helped me a lot.
"i didn't know that the other poems you mention are later then the Iliad"
All I know is the authors were contemporary but they wrote them later than Homer had written Iliad. Homer's Iliad had a simple explanation and with the Cypria and Sack of ilios, we have a more mythological answer for the cause of the war. These are what my Literature teacher have said.

"You're asking whether the text of the Iliad backs up the story of the judgement of paris causing the war? Or whether it gives some other account?"
For Homer, his only cause of the war was the abduction of Helen right? I don't know if he gave any other explanation other than this one. Now we know that the cause of the war was just for securing the slavery routes which belonged to the Hittites at that time and Achaeans attacked to Troy for this reason, Homer didn't mention about this of course.
 
RLynn

RLynn

Active Member
I've not read the Iliad. All I know is that I would sure like to see this Helen woman. :)
 
LegendofJoe

LegendofJoe

Active Member
Just finished reading an interesting book about the amazons in Greek mythology.
The author states that there were other books on the Trojan war mythology besides Homer's.
They have been lost to us due in part to the closing of pagan learning centers by Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century.
 
G

Gaboraa

New Member
LegendofJoe said:
there were other books on the Trojan war mythology besides Homer's.
They have been lost to us due in part to the closing of pagan learning centers by Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century.
Click to expand...
Sad to hear that, we need other versions too:) BTW I don't think Helen was that beautiful, just for jealousy and revenge and nothing more:)
 
Myrddin

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Gaboraa said:
I don't think Helen was that beautiful, just for jealousy and revenge and nothing more:)
Click to expand...
If she wasn't really that beautiful, then why would the Greeks have launched a thousand ships to go after her? It would only have been a handful out of loyalty then, right?
 
G

Gaboraa

New Member
Myrddin said:
If she wasn't really that beautiful, then why would the Greeks have launched a thousand ships to go after her? It would only have been a handful out of loyalty then, right?
Click to expand...
I don't think it was just because of her beauty, beauty is nothing in war and also don't think that Menelaus (her husband) was that stupid to sacrifice the whole country just for his beautiful wife. These are all Homer's narration. As I said above, war should have happened just to secure the slavery routes and to strengthen the economy but if it was just her beauty, I would learn some Necromancy spells to return her back and I would marry with her:)
 
LegendofJoe

LegendofJoe

Active Member
Could you imagine anybody being THAT beautiful!!!
Hmmm, who would qualify today?
I still would vote for Sharon Stone, no matter how old she is now.:D
 
Nadai

Nadai

Active Member
Myrddin said:
If she wasn't really that beautiful, then why would the Greeks have launched a thousand ships to go after her? It would only have been a handful out of loyalty then, right?
Click to expand...
According to the myth, there was a pact between the men who joined in the persuit to reclaim Helen. According to myth, she was such a catch that she was was sought after by ever available bachelor who could pay the price for her.
...
When it was time for Tyndareus' step-daughter Helen to marry, many Greek kings and princes came to seek her hand, or sent emissaries to do so on their behalf. Among the contenders were Odysseus, Menestheus, Ajax the Great, Patroclus, and Idomeneus. Most offered opulent gifts to win Tyndareus' favor. But Tyndareus would accept none of the gifts, nor would he send any of the suitors away for fear of offending them and giving grounds for a quarrel. Odysseus promised to solve the problem in a satisfactory manner if Tyndareus would support him in his courting of Tyndareus' niece Penelope, the daughter of Icarius. Tyndareus readily agreed, and Odysseus proposed that, before the decision was made, all the suitors should swear a most solemn oath to defend the chosen husband in any quarrel. Then it was decreed that straws were to be drawn for Helen's hand. The suitor who won was Menelaus (Tyndareus, not to displease the powerful Agamemnon offered him another daughter Clytaemnestra).[2] The rest of the Greek kings swore their oaths, and Helen and Menelaus were married, Menelaus becoming a ruler of Sparta with Helen after Tyndareus and Leda either died or abdicated the thrones. Menelaus and Helen had a daughter, Hermione as supported, for example, by Sappho[3] and some variations of the myth suggest they had two sons as well.​
...​
Had they not all gotten together to support Menelaus in his reclaiming of Helen they would have broken their oath.​
 
Myrddin

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
So it was Odyseuss's stupid idea to swear to an oath that lead to the war? *sigh* At least he seemed to realize, on some level anyway, that they would be the bad guys in that war. (He did pretend to be mad to try to get out of it.)
 
Nadai

Nadai

Active Member
Myrddin said:
So it was Odyseuss's stupid idea to swear to an oath that lead to the war? *sigh* At least he seemed to realize, on some level anyway, that they would be the bad guys in that war. (He did pretend to be mad to try to get out of it.)
Click to expand...

Poor Achilles didn't want to join in either.
 
D

dtango

Member
fibi ducks said:
I do believe that all of these poems were more or less composed from a great body of stories that existed before any of them were written down at this or that poem.
Click to expand...
Correct!
Based on this fact and on the undeniable fact that according to myths of the Greeks their women were constantly abducted and raped (mostly by the arch-rapist Zeus), the cause of the Trojan war was a rebellion against those who were stealing their women; i.e. the gods!

Sounds crazy. I know!
Yet, you have to bear in mind that the ancient Greeks were the only people to emerge in the historical times without a priestly class.

Did goddess Athena kill the Giant Pallas, skinned him and dressed herself in his skin, or did she do that to her father (the god) who attempted to rape her? The latter case is the older and therefore the original one.

Happy to having find you, Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am a lover of the Great Mother (Athena, Venus, Ishtar, Freya, or any other name she is known by) and a sworn enemy of the gods. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top