The golden apple

[castor]

The golden apple

The nice thing about Greek Mythology is that they seem to be rather simple stories, but they carry a rather complex message.

I'd like to use the story of the golden apple as an example.

You all probably know the story.
Zeus is throwing a party in honor of the marriage of Peleus and Thesis. Eris an alleged party-pooper is not invited. So she comes up with a plan to disrupt the party.
She picks a golden apple en writes the following text ont it: καλλίστῃ or, "for the fairest one". Then she secretly sneek into the party and rolls the apple on the floor into the crow.
The three main godesses Hera, Athena and Aphrodite start fighting for it. The other gods stand timidly aside and watch the brawl. As the scratching and biting starts to get ugly, Mars decides to get Zeus. Zeus in the mean time was standing at the bar drinking his wine and bragging to Apollo about his latest adventure, impressing some muzes.
A smuck Mars tells him that his 'wifes' are fighting and isn't he supposed to do something about it. Zeus crosses over to the fight and bellows at the top of his voice: "LADIES".
De fighting stops. The women get untangled. And then, while brushing off a dustspeck of her sleeve she say: "Zeus,who do you think is the fairest".
Zeus, suddenly getting this being fried sensation and feeling the golden apple in his mouth, has to think fast. "I am not an expert on fairness" he claims and he sends the three women to Paris, an seventeen year-old prince of Troy, who gives the golden apple to Aphrodite."

Question is: Could Zeus know that Paris was going to give the apple to Aphrodite?

 

[Aegipan]

We must consider that gods not always know what will happen, so Zeus maybe just gave away the responsibility. But even if he knew or not this myth has a philosophical meaning: people choose their way. In this case Paris chooses Aphrodite insted of Athena and Hera, chooses passion instead of wisdom and reason and starts the war. Wars start from exactly that, passion dominates and reason can't stop people get killed.

 

[AcadianSidhe]

I think we also see that not even the gods are all powerful and must submit to fate. Sometimes humans choose to do things that have consequences not even the gods prevent.

 

[castor]

Thank for your replies, I really appreciate your responses.

In ancient Greek people had a very definite idea about what the gods looked like:

- Hera was a mother figure. She was recomended for her pale arms
- Athena was wearing a helmet, wielding a spear or sword and carrying a shield. On top of this she was dressed from chin to toe in a formless dress.
- Aphrodite on the other hand was every 17-years old wildest fantasy.

or

Just imagine, you are a seventeen year old boy, and you are confronted with your mother, your nerdy sister and a girl from your wildest dreams. Who would you choose.

I think this outcome is not hard to predict.
In my opinion Zeus did know and took revenge for the spot Hera put him in. The moment Hera realizes this she tries to bribe Paris but then Athene and Aphrodite do the same.

Maybe it is time to consider the start of the Iliad:
Tell me oh muse of the revenge of Achilles. The Greek suffered terribly. To Hades went numberous heroes. Dogs and vultures ate their corpses.
It was Zeus who wanted it.

Moral: Men are smarter.... or not?

 

[AcadianSidhe]

Moral: Men are smarter.... or not?

Ask tiresas.

 

[castor]

Ask tiresas.

Tiresias as in I'd rather go blind?. Excellent. AcadianSidhe, you must be a woman.
A old folksinger Harry belafonte sung, my parents liked him, 'Woman are smarter'.

But if we stay within the boundaries of the Iliad. Does Hera goes crawling back on her knees to Zeus or ......? Will she ever forgive him for this humilation. Will she ever be on speaking terms with Aphrodite again?

Tune in tomorrow. For the next episode of ancient greek soap......

 

[Aegipan]

I think castor touches only the surface the myth. We must not forget that Paris was not choose between the goddesses but between their promises. Aphrodite offered to give him a beautiful woman, Athena offered him wisdom and Hera offered him a peaceful and happy family. It is something like the dilemma of Hercules.

 

[castor]

@aegipan.

And what is the deeper meaning?

 

[Aegipan]

Just read my posts.

 

[castor]

I think castor touches only the surface the myth. We must not forget that Paris was not choose between the goddesses but between their promises. Aphrodite offered to give him a beautiful woman, Athena offered him wisdom and Hera offered him a peaceful and happy family. It is something like the dilemma of Hercules.

I suppose this is the post you are referring to. Unless my English is lacking, I read a restatement of the bribes offered to Paris initiated by Hera and topped by Venus in the form of a second appeal to a seventeen year's old hormones.
The inscription on the apple was clear, it was intended for the fairest. So Paris assignment was to choose the most beautifull goddess. I don't think anybody could argue with that.
But I agree it changed into a choose of bribes. Somehow I don't have the idea that is what you mean.

I am not looking for a 'forum-fight'. So if I have offended you I apologize. Secondly I'm really interested in the philosphical/psycological aspects of this myth, it's a very rich one. I would like to explore it from different angles and I sincerely welcome whatever new angle pops up.

For starters, what do you think about the idea that the start of the myth show us that ignoring problems won't work. Eris cannot be ignored.

 

[castor]

Does Hera go back to Zeus with her tail between her legs?

Absolutely not!

Homer tells us:
For the next nineteen years Zeus sleeps on the couch. Then Hera realises Zeus is not competent to resolve the situation and she takes action.
She goes to Venus and asks her for a potion to seduce Zeus.

That evening, Zeus is working in his study, balancing the fate of the Trojans against the Greek, Hera strides in, being the rare beauty you only find among mature women, of course aided by the secret potion of Venus: . And after nineteen years celibacy it is not so hard to seduce Zeus.
The next morning, Hera still sound asleep, Zeus sneeks of to his study and continues his balancing of fates.
Suddenly a sweet voice from the bedroom calls his name: "Zeus, where are you, my brave ox?" Zeus yells "Troy is lost", and hurries back to the bedroom.

And so as it turns out Hera in the end outmaneuvers Zeus.
I guess Women are smarter, but also revengefull: Troy pays a terrible price.

 

[Aegipan]

We must consider that gods not always know what will happen, so Zeus maybe just gave away the responsibility. But even if he knew or not this myth has a philosophical meaning: people choose their way. In this case Paris chooses Aphrodite insted of Athena and Hera, chooses passion instead of wisdom and reason and starts the war. Wars start from exactly that, passion dominates and reason can't stop people get killed.

I mean this post.

As for the "hormones idea" that you seem to support i can't except it because Paris was not choosing a goddess to sleep with but it was choosing the best gift. Homer discribes him as a mindless young man that can't see the consequences of his actions so it's not a surprise the choice he make. Hercules on the other hand had a similar choice to make but he choose the ugly woman who offered him a life of virtue instead of a life of pleasure. I think is needless to compare the two heroes.

As for the trick of Hera only saved the Greeks from defeat, after the night of passion Zeus awake and furius push her aside and went on to help Trojans.

P.S. I'm not offended, i simply want to dig dipper in the myths to unravel the philosophical meaning.

 

[castor]

Great. Thanks. I sincerely enjoy your comments then.

So Homer discribes him as a mindless young man that can't see the consequences of his actions, I would say that describes a 17 year old hormone driven boy quite well.

Leaving the actual Paris judgement as it is for moment.

I was wondering if Zeus could have predicted the outcome. I think he could.

How do you feel about these three godesses fighting for the golden apple which is supposed to be for the fairest.

It seems to me that these women, even the goddess of wisdom, are pictured as a foolish, vain women? It seems that they are more concerned with their looks than any other aspect of their being.

 

[castor]

As for the "hormones idea" that you seem to support i can't except it because Paris was not choosing a goddess to sleep with but it was choosing the best gift.

Each of the three goddesses wants to be the fairest one. What purpose serves a woman to have good looks?
Isn't it to improve ones changes to catch a man?
Seems that the 'hormones' turn up a little earlier in the story.

Being a man and have been 17, I have to admit, most of my thoughts and those of my friends where hormone driven at that age. .
But maybe we were not your average male boy. (We did all go to University).

 

[frang]

I am not looking for a 'forum-fight'...

Half of the fun of these forums are the fights. Come on, knock him down, knock him down!

 

[AcadianSidhe]

@ Aegipan

I thought Hera offered Paris Asia. Power. I'm sure it's just a conflict of stories.

I would totally have picked Athena.

 

[AcadianSidhe]

I kind of like this whole vanity thing. I think it's funny the goddesses are so shallow they don't actually care WHO is the most beautiful enough to let the contest be based on actual fairness (ha! double entendre!).

 

[castor]

Maybe this myth is telling us about women and young men.

Una:
The start of the conflict is not inviting a certain woman to the party because she tends to quarrel. Blocking her creates all the havoc.
So the simple and straightforward lesson should be, we should not block women from arguing, it only makes things worse.

Due:
The apple is the ancient symbol of wisdom. So if on the outside is written, for the fairest, it implies looks supersedes brains.
Looking at the reacting of the three godesses I have to agree. They are more concerned with their appearences than any form of rationality.
Again a simple message wome can totally be manipulated by adressing their looks.

Trias:
When Zeus tries to intervene in these ´female´ affairs. He gets in an awkward position and the situation escalates even more.
Lesson to be learned:
Men should not intervene in these types of situations.

The interesting question is why? Why is this an important message according to the Greek?



@AcadianSidhe
I'm still persuing Athene but she somehow allways seems to elude me.

 

[AcadianSidhe]

Maybe this myth is telling us about women and young men.

The interesting question is why? Why is this an important message according to the Greek?

Probably a fable about staying out of what is clearly women's business

 

[castor]

Suddenly our myth became a fable

But I agree an important part is stating that we should not meddle in these clearly female affairs, you did leave out the looks part.

Is having good looks an aim in itself?

By the way this is not an ancient Greek thing. Nowadays fortunes are earned in the cosmetic industries and I won't even mention the amounts spend in the cosmetic surgery industry.

Does a female benefit from having good looks in the way that it increases her intelligence. (In the sense lipstick makes her smarter).
Or does it enhence her endurence
(bigger breast make her deliver her newspapers twice as fast)?
Or does she get stronger (high heels make her lift heavier loads)?

I wish it did. Improving appearences will only help in the 'luring a man' department. And according to this Greek myth women can not be trusted because this urge supersedes everything.

Hero is married to Zeus, but still wants to be in general demand. Athene, goddess of wisdom, has absolutely no sense left.