Norse cosmology

granpa

Member
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning

How was the earth fashioned? Made answer Har: The earth is round, and without it round about lies the deep ocean, and along the outer strand of that sea they gave lands for the giant races to dwell in; and against the attack of restless giants they built a burg within the sea and around the earth. For this purpose they used the giant Ymer's eyebrows, and they called the burg Midgard.


the sons of Bor made for themselves in the middle of the world a burg, which is called Asgard, and which we call Troy. There dwelt the gods and their race, and thence were wrought many tidings and adventures, both on earth and in the sky. In Asgard is a place called Hlidskjalf, and when Odin seated himself there in the high-seat, he saw over the whole world, and what every man was doing, and he knew all things that he saw.



 
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Benst

New Member
I think you're playing into Snorri's re-envisioning a bit too much. Troy and Asgard were not the same place
 

Benst

New Member
which is called Asgard, and which we call Troy.
You seemed to right there, and by posting Snorri's conjecture about Troy and Asgard, you are agreeing with it. Remember, Snorri is a good source for some things, but you have got to see through his 13th century christian syncreticism. It's one thing to present authentic and reliable sources, and quite another to present your own ideas as if they were authentic.
 

granpa

Member
I had the Jotunn and the Hrimthurs switched.
I've fixed it now.


https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Prose_Edda/Gylfaginning

In the beginning, when the town of the gods was building, when the gods had set out Midgard and made Valhal,
there came a certain builder (Bergelmir) and offered to make them a burg (Svalinn), in three half years,
so excellent that it should be perfectly safe against the mountain giants and frost-giants, even though they should get within Midgard.
But he demanded as his reward, that he should have Freyja, and he wanted the sun and moon besides.

...When the asas thus became sure that it was really a mountain-giant that had come among them,
they did not heed their oaths, but called on Thor.
He came straightaway, swung his hammer, Mjolner, and paid the workman his wages.
---not with the sun and moon, but rather by preventing him from dwelling in (soon to be flooded) Jotunheim;
and this was easily done with the first blow of the hammer, which broke his skull into small pieces and sent him down to Niflhel.
 
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Alejandro

Active Member
Uhhmm... Actually that looks pretty much like Chapter 42 of the Gylfaginning... with a few additions/interpretations, rather than inventions (I count three, to be precise: basically everything there that's in parentheses).

Granpa is basically identifying Bergelmir as the [otherwise unnamed] disguised giant who builds the fortification or citadel wall [burg] of the gods' town/dwelling; who owns the magic stallion Svaðilfari, by whom Loki becomes the mother of the more famous eight-legged stallion Sleipnir; and whose head ends up in pieces at the mercy of Þórr's hammer in spite of a deal the disguised giant had made with the gods.

The first of only two things which in my opinion are strange here would be that, for some reason, in this interpretation, Svalinn, the shield of the sun-goddess Sól, has been equated with the wall which the giant builds for the gods (whether this giant is actually Bergelmir or not). A few translators actually seem to personify this shield Svalinn, making it/him sound a lot like a frost giant (the name means "Cold" or "Chill" and the purpose of this object/person is to shield the universe from the full intensity of the sun-chariot's heat). At any rate it's difficult for me to see this shield as a static wall, since in the mythology the sun is in perpetual motion (it has to be lest it gets swallowed by the giant wolf Sköll, who is in constant relentless pursuit of it).

The other thing is that in the chronology of this interpretation, the giants have, at the time of the fortification's construction, not yet been drowned in Ymir's blood (unless granpa intends a different meaning by Jötunheim being "soon to be flooded" - you can correct me if I misunderstand). The slaying of Ymir and the inadvertent drowning of his descendants would obviously have to have preceded the construction of the worlds which Óðinn and his brothers built, which would include at least some of the places mentioned in this story, such as "Midgard" and "Valhal."

Otherwise, I think the identity of the disguised workman is an interesting take on what might have happened to Bergelmir after he escaped the Flood and fathered the giants who would later become a threat to the Æsir.
 

Benst

New Member
I should have been more precise in my argument against what granpa was suggesting Alejandro, quite right for you to call me out on it. All three of your observations are correct and also what I find to be odd. I would say that adding these details to the story is inventing, not interpreting. By the act of addition, you are re-creating. This will be fine if Granpa was saying these were his own ideas, but the title of this thread was Norse Cosmology... not 'Granpa's interpretation of Norse Cosmology'. I agree, they're interesting, but lets not forget that they are not the original. All we have left is the texts, and if the texts are laid down in a certain way then we have to go with them. Likewise, as much as the Prose Edda is compelling... it was written by a Christian who was trying to ally the Norse myths into an acceptable Christian framework. In no Norse text does it say Jotunheim was flooded by Ymir's blood, Jotunheim is created after Ymir's death at the beginning. Therefore, to change around the chronology to fit into a syncreticism is in my view absolutely wrong to do. Interpretations have to be on fact and nothing says that Bergelmir was a master builder. His etymology of his name 'Mountain Yeller' doesn't suggest to me anything to do with building.

Uhhmm... Actually that looks pretty much like Chapter 42 of the Gylfaginning... with a few additions/interpretations, rather than inventions (I count three, to be precise: basically everything there that's in parentheses).

Granpa is basically identifying Bergelmir as the [otherwise unnamed] disguised giant who builds the fortification or citadel wall [burg] of the gods' town/dwelling; who owns the magic stallion Svaðilfari, by whom Loki becomes the mother of the more famous eight-legged stallion Sleipnir; and whose head ends up in pieces at the mercy of Þórr's hammer in spite of a deal the disguised giant had made with the gods.

The first of only two things which in my opinion are strange here would be that, for some reason, in this interpretation, Svalinn, the shield of the sun-goddess Sól, has been equated with the wall which the giant builds for the gods (whether this giant is actually Bergelmir or not). A few translators actually seem to personify this shield Svalinn, making it/him sound a lot like a frost giant (the name means "Cold" or "Chill" and the purpose of this object/person is to shield the universe from the full intensity of the sun-chariot's heat). At any rate it's difficult for me to see this shield as a static wall, since in the mythology the sun is in perpetual motion (it has to be lest it gets swallowed by the giant wolf Sköll, who is in constant relentless pursuit of it).

The other thing is that in the chronology of this interpretation, the giants have, at the time of the fortification's construction, not yet been drowned in Ymir's blood (unless granpa intends a different meaning by Jötunheim being "soon to be flooded" - you can correct me if I misunderstand). The slaying of Ymir and the inadvertent drowning of his descendants would obviously have to have preceded the construction of the worlds which Óðinn and his brothers built, which would include at least some of the places mentioned in this story, such as "Midgard" and "Valhal."

Otherwise, I think the identity of the disguised workman is an interesting take on what might have happened to Bergelmir after he escaped the Flood and fathered the giants who would later become a threat to the Æsir.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Quite the debate going on. I am finding this all very interesting.

Benst, I understand what you mean by "inventions". Not exactly what they are but I can see how they can be viewed that way. Adding one's own interpreatation is fine, of course, but one should always say and make clear what and where these are. It just avoids all confusion.

E. M.
 
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Benst

New Member
Healthy debate is never a bad thing, as long as it remains respectful. I suppose it really depends where we come from in our own study. Comparitive folklore and mythology can only go so far until, to me, it crosses an inappropriate boundary. The most important and best way to understand a myth is to understand the culture it comes from.

I can appreciate the idea that links can be made between the various mythological systems, but for me it is crucial to keep things in perspective. Text based is always preferable, but with oral cultures that may not be possible. That being said, all texts must be scrutinized, especially texts written after the culture shifted to embrace a new religion.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Healthy debate is never a bad thing, as long as it remains respectful. I suppose it really depends where we come from in our own study. Comparitive folklore and mythology can only go so far until, to me, it crosses an inappropriate boundary. The most important and best way to understand a myth is to understand the culture it comes from.
I totally agree.

I can appreciate the idea that links can be made between the various mythological systems, but for me it is crucial to keep things in perspective.
Could not agree more.

Text based is always preferable, but with oral cultures that may not be possible. That being said, all texts must be scrutinized, especially texts written after the culture shifted to embrace a new religion.
Well, of course, everything that's been handed down to us, at this point, is in text form. It's all we have to learn about the ancient cultures. That being said, we must remember still that the spoken word was developed before the written word, and by consequence, a lot must have been garbled by the time it made it to the written word. Even some of the oldest texts can easily mislead. (Even those who wrote down their own travels, I'm sure didn't get to "pen and paper" right away - who knows, but maybe some things could have been forgotten or possibly, after thought on, were made out much bigger and extreme than they actually were - of course, that's the basic definition of 'Legend' [not myth]).

I gotta point out though, a lot of cultures didn't so much embrace new religions so much as they were forced into them (were they not martyred if they refused to "embrace" it?).

E. M.
 
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