No greek magic!

fibi ducks

Active Member
It has to do with that line between religion and magic, which is not always clear.
If God or gods perform marvels and miracles, it is called religion, and you need to pray to these gods in
order for them to perform said miracles.
Meanwhile if a mortal is able to manipulate forces in the universe to create his own marvels,
then it is magic.
If these forces are not of the occult (hidden), and instead are of the natural kind (gravity, electricity), then
we know this as science, not magic.
The ancient Greeks talked of this magical substance or force, and it was called dynamis.
I suppose it is where we get our words dynamic and dynamo.
The Egyptians described something similar as heka, and Malinowski's Trobriand islanders called it mana; a word
beloved by video game lovers and other gamesters.
The 19th century occultist called it the astral light.
hi LofJ,
i'm not sure if you're presenting your own point of view or not here. but - on the difference between science and magic - are they the same thing, just that they look different to us when understanding is hidden? Or is there a realm of science - and then again a realm of magic that can't be made into science? the first one seems straightforwardish to me. the second a bit more mysterious.
what you say about the gods not doing magic as such seems right to me. i reckon that the gods are not entirely known to us, that they keep on surprising us with their abilities (and occasionally failings), and that we don't really know how they do things. so we just say they are powerful and leave it at that. actually i think it would be quite funny if it were discovered that a god had done something by using a magic spell. i think the god would be pretty embarassed about it. am thinking as i type this out.
i'll look up 'dynamis' when i have time
 

LegendofJoe

Active Member
Hi fibi ducks
You bring up a good point concerning science and magic.
Before magnetism was understood as a scientific phenomenon, it was seen
by some as an occult force.
There are some today who believe that certain magical phenomena will be proven
by science one day.
Certain Arab astrologers in the middle ages tried to explain astrology by claiming that the planets sent down
coercive rays that affect us.
To me, there is an essential difference between magic and science.
Science deals with only the natural world.
Magic is concerned more with trying to alter reality using means that go beyond normal scientific laws.
For example, a person wearing a talisman with an old symbol of Jupiter on it may believe that they are
pulling down the influence of Jupiter to bring more joy in his or her life, since Jupiter is a "happy" planet.
A scientist will say that the only effect Jupiter has on us is its negligible gravitational pull.
There is nothing intrinsically "happy" about Jupiter.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
I thought about this too in the last couple of days. i think that magic and science have in common a non-personal approach. what i mean is - you're looking at cause and effect, and not asking anyone any favours. E.g. if i use magic or apply science to get to some end, i believe that it should work if i do everything properly, and not down to whether anyone is feeling generous.
in your example of the Jupiter talisman i think this analyses works out - even though there is the person of Jupiter possibly knocking about. I reckon the idea there is that the image of him and maybe his name -if its written there - bring his essence into play. He himself doesn't have to know about my having the talisman for it to does its thing.
the difference maybe lies only in the fact that mainstream understanding of the laws of the universe has changed a lot, and for a long time we aimed to see everything as little balls interacting or something like that. But really these two things are the same enterprise.
Me - I'm quite happy to think there may be laws in the universe that work another way than billiard balls bumping into eachother. So i suppose i'm like the people you mention who think that one day some magic will become science.
Thanks for your thoughts
 

LegendofJoe

Active Member
It is funny that in the modern world people respect religion and science but scoff at magic.
Deep down i think most still have some regard for it.
I was talking to a research scientist some time ago. She asked me what I was reading.
When I told her that it concerned magic spells, she sad excitedly: "Does that work!"
Personally, I have little use for magic or religion in understanding how the universe works, but hey! you never know.
In the meantime, I still enjoy learning about the world's religions as well as the history of magical beliefs.
It is like my love for mythology; I am crazy for it, but I don't literally believe any of it.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
In Greek mythology, there actually is plenty of magic/sorcery, as well as characters who practise it, in the most traditional senses of these terms. In addition to the witches Kirke (Circe) and Medeia, who've received ample mention above, there are several other characters who might properly be called magicians, witches or sorcerers.There are also mentions of "softer" uses of "the craft" by various characters here and there. E.g., the prophet Melampus learned the speech of animals by having his ears licked out by snakes, which is definitely magic.

The Kerykeion, "Keryx's [Herald's] Rod/Staff" (called the Caduceus by the Romans), of the messenger-god Hermes was actually a magic wand. Originally owned by Hermes' eldest brother Apollon, its original powers are quite enigmatic if we base our knowledge thereof on the words spoken, according to The Homeric Hymn to Hermes, by Apollon when he was bequeathing it to the newborn Hermes. Apollon promises Hermes "a splendid staff of riches and wealth," made of gold (though in some references it is olive-wood), which would keep him safe from harm, "accomplishing every task, whether of words or deeds that are good". That sounds a lot like a magic charm to me.

In addition to these remarkable powers, Hermes, by the use of this device, eventually bore the power over waking, sleep and dreams, all of which he could induce in an individual simply with a wave of his rod/staff/wand. That seems to give this god pretty much the same power as Hypnos, the personification of Sleep himself, who once was able to cause the mighty Zeus to fall asleep against his will. To achieve such results Hypnos would, so it is said, use drops of water from the Lethe, the Underworld river of forgetfulness. I don't know if that counts as magic but I leave you to decide that.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
It is interesting that Apollon is the original owner of the Kerykeion, since the Caduceus we know of today is most famously associated with Apollon's son Asklepios, the god of medicine and healing. As RLynn has mentioned, in ancient times there was quite a thin line between magic and medicine, and the methods which made Askelpios a famous physician are actually more akin to magic than to modern Western medicinal science. So it's ironic that the same "science" —which uses the Caduceus, an esoteric magical symbol, as its representative emblem—derides most traditional forms of medicine as hocus-pocus and mumbo-jumbo. The most famous power that Hermes' Kerykeion possessed was that it could reconcile any conflicting elements. Soon after he first received it, he came by a pair of quarrelling snakes. Thrusting the rod between the two animals, he found that they couldn't help but entwine themselves around the staff. So pleased with the result, he commanded them to remain there forever, which they did, and it is in this form that we have the same symbol, rather as an emblem of Hermes' nephew Asklepios, at modern hospitals and in medical publishing.

I know of no mention of the actual origin of the Kerykeion, which makes it even more mysterious. Was it made by the Cyclopes or the Telkhines like the rest of the earliest tools and weapons of the gods? Having emerged from the sea, sporting dog-heads and fish-flippers for hands, the Telkhines were three or four mysterious magicians who are said to have invented metalworking, which art, like medicine, was anciently considered in itself to be a form of magic. Thus Hephaistos, the blacksmith for the gods, who, together with the three Cyclopes, forged Zeus' thunderbolts, could be called a sort of magician. In fact the Cyclopes were said to be the only beings, in the entire universe, with the knowledge of how to create thunder and lightning; hidden or arcane knowledge is a basic tenet of the practice of witchcraft and wizardry. The Telkhines are on the one hand said to have been a form of the Cyclopes or the Hekatonkheires [the two sets of triplet uncles of Zeus who helped him to defeat the Titans], or the Kouretes or the Dactyls [two other groups who are associated with having protected Zeus in his childhood, and who are also connected with magical rites], and on the other hand Zeus is said to have been so offended by their use of evil sorcery that he buried them either deep in the sea or in the depths of Tartaros in the Underworld.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
The Telkhines are said to have to made the cosmic sickle which Kronos used to castrate his father Ouranos (Uranus), as well as the Trident of Poseidon, though the latter is usually attributed to the Cyclopes, together with Zeus' thunderbolts, and the Aidos kyne, "Cap of Haides [Hades]." Another magical treasure of the gods, the Aidos kyne is connected with the name of Haides itself, meaning "the Unseen One": it was Haides' magic hat of invisibility, rendering its wearer visually undetectable. Haides once lent it to his nephew Perseus when he was on his quest to slay the Gorgon Medusa, and Haides himself used it in battle against the Gigantes when the latter attacked Olympos. Perhaps like these other treasures, Aphrodite's magic girdlewhose wearer had the power to become as desirable as she wished, to whomever she wishedwas made by the Cyclopes or the Telkhines.

The wonders worked by Asklepios, before he was killed by Zeus, were mostly due to the backup of his aunt Athena, who gave him a cache of Medusa's blood, half of which was deadly venom and the other half of which could resurrect the dead; he got himself killed overusing the latter portion thereof. Medusa's hair, which was made of bronze snakes, had the power to stop an entire army's onslaught if a lock of it was held aloft three times. That is undoubtedly magic, and with this particular device Herakles (Hercules), who had also received it from Athena, once aided the Arcadian princess Sterope.

The super-fast magic dog Lailaps, from whom no creature could escape, and the super-fast magic vixen called the Teumessian Fox, which no one could ever catch, were both created by the gods. Lailaps was given as a present by Artemis to Kephalos while the Teumessian Fox was set as plague on Thebes by Themis. Also at Thebes, after Teiresias had been blinded by Hera, Zeus gave him a magical blue cornel-wood staff with which he was able to walk as though he could see. By magic, Teiresias had become a woman for seven years prior to this and by magic he had changed back into a man.

RLynn has hinted, above, at the fact that the English words pharmacist, pharmacy and pharmacology derive from Greek words referring to magic and sorcery. In the mythology, there is a group of goddesses labelled Pharmakeiai, "Witches," because they used magic to delay the birth of Herakles. These were the Moirai and the Eileithyiai, more especially the latter, who used the technique of crossing legs and crossing fingers in order to do this.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
And finally, we have the characters I mentioned in passing at the beginning of my Reply: the ones who we can call full-on magicians and sorcerers. Incidentally, they all come from the same family—that of Kirke and Medeia. All the others are the siblings of Kirke, being the children of the sun-god Helios and the Oceanid Perseis, namely Pasiphai and her brothers Aügeias, Aietes and Perses. Additionally, there is a woman named Agamede, daughter of Aügeias. Kirke and Pasiphai were actually both goddesses, and Pasiphai was also a queen of Crete, being married to its king, her own second cousin Minos. Aügeias was king of the Epeians of Elis, and Aietes and Perses were kings of Colchis in Russia. Medeia was a daughter of Aietes. The fact that these magicians all came from this family prompted me to ask the following question on Yahoo!Answers, which failed to generate any noteworthy response, but maybe you guys'd be more interested. Check it out>>

Connection between the sun and witchcraft in Greek mythology?

Apart from Hekate, the goddess of witchcraft herself, all the magicians in Greek mythology are directly descended from Helios, the personification and god of the sun. These are his children by his cousin and wife, the Oceanid Perseïs. The children are: the immortal witches Circe and Pasiphae, and the sorcerer-kings Augeias, Aeetes and Perses. The most notorious witch in the mythology, Medea, was a daughter of Aeetes and therefore a granddaughter of Helios. She was said to have been so powerful that, through her goddess Hekate, she could manipulate the cosmic movements of her own grandfather the Sun, and those of her great-aunt the Moon (Selene, sister of Helios). Hekate herself was the daughter of two cousins of Helios, and Augeias’ daughter Agamede was also a powerful witch and granddaughter of the Sun.

Does this signify some kind of special connection between the sun and witchcraft in Greek mythology? Or, since none of Helios’ other children—the ones he begot upon other women—exhibit these magical powers, perhaps the connection is to be sought instead in his wife Perseïs, the mother and grandmother of all these sorcerers?
 

Alejandro

Active Member
Ooh! But while you're chewing on that, how could I forget? The most colourful character, just in my own opinion maybe, who's called a witch in Greek myth is actually none of the above! There is one other, called Thrake, whose name would be Latinised Thrace. If her name sounds weirdly familiar it's coz the region of Thrake/Thrace is supposedly named after her. Aaron Atsma mentions her in passing on his Theoi Project website but has not yet given her the full Encyclopedia article treatment. She does not seem to be mentioned by any major mythographer but I was able to find some material on her on another website about the history of [the region of] Thrake. That web-link seems to be dead now, though, and it did not say what its sources for the character's mythology were. All the same, this is wsup>>

According to The Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, Thrake and Europe were the daughters of the Titan Okeanos and a certain Parthenope (the Seiren?). Their half-sisters Asia and Libya were the daughter of Okeanos and a certain Pampholyge or Pamphyloge (never heard of her in any other context; any ideas who she's supposed to be?). Parthenope and Pamphyloge/Pampholyge were "wives" of Okeanos while Thrake, Europe, Asia and Libya gave their names to the geographical regions of Thrace, Europe, Anatolia (Asia Minor) and Africa.

As an Oceanid, Thrake was a nymph of the Okeanos River but she was also a witch and a goddess of Thrace. She consorted with and bore sons to the Hekatonkheiros Obriareos (or Briareus, who mortals called Aigaion), the Titan Kronos, as well as the gods Zeus and Ares!

Trieros, the son of Obriareos and Thrake, became the ancestor of a Thracian tribe called the Trieres.
Doloneus, the son of Kronos and Thrake, became the ancestor of a Thracian tribe called the Doloneoi.
Bithynos, the son of Zeus and Thrake, became the ancestor of the people of Bithynia in the region owned by Thrake's sister half-sister Asia.
Ismaros, the son of Ares and Thrake, apparently founded a city bearing his name in the land of the Kikones, a Thracian tribe. He might be the same character as Immarados (or Ismaros) son of Eumolpos, whose wife was a princess of Thrace.

Thrace is also said to have been named after another mythical personage named Thrax, who was either the very first Thracian or the first king of the region. His name, at any rate, means "Thracian," and he was a son of Ares. His mother might have been this same nymph-goddess-witch.
 
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