Is persephone really unhappy?

Isis

Member
The myth usually states that Persephone was abducted by Hades and is unhappy during the six months she must spend with him. I also read somewhere that actually she's not unhappy during that time; only her mother is. What do you think?
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Hello Isis. Down there its said to be dingy, and most of the ghosts have lost their wits. So there's hardly anyone to talk to, and news from up above takes an age to reach anyone down there so its quite cut off. Hades is said to be inflexible, which is not an attractive quality. Ok, its possible he's different with family- I mean Stalin was said to be a good family man. Within those constraints then - is it possible to be happy? For me no, I'd maybe get six hours a day of interest from studying the rock formations (if i could see them in the dinge) and finding out about the lore and history of the underworld (if anyone could be found who could remember anything) and talking to historical dead people (if they hadn't forgotten who they were). But beyond that I'd just get bored and feel need of sky and wind and sunlight. Also I'm not sure what the food is like down there but I wouldn't have high hopes.
But is there a link for you between Hades and Osiris here? I mean he was Isis' husband but is now in the afterworld. He's still poweful and has kept his wits - at least he was when the Contentions of Horus and Seth were written.
 

Rhonda Tharp

Active Member
Osiris was killed by his brother... twice. Egyptians memorized the prayers from the book of the Dead so that when their heart was weighed on the scales of Ma'at, they would recite the prayers to help their case... They WANTED to be with Osiris. Can we say that Greeks looked forward to spending eternity with Hades? Or do we think of it differently because there is a negative connotation with the Underworld because of the Christian view of hell that has been perpetuated onto these older views of the afterlife? Or for that matter other cultures' beliefs of punishment of those that did not lead a good life and did not pay respect to the gods.

This post reminded me of a book called "Women in Greek Myth" by Lefkowitz which discussed the notions of abduction and rape in Ancient Greek and how those terms may not have the same meaning (or negativity) as 21st century meanings. The author mentioned that while rape and abduction happened frequently, the victims were not always "unhappy." If we look at the myth of Persephone through ancient Greeks' frame of mind, there may be an argument that Persophone wasn't as miserable as 21st century minds might assume. Jmho...
 

Isis

Member
Thanks for your thoughts. I was under the impression that the Greek hell was not necessarily torturous, but was a bit dreary so I don't know that the Greeks in general would necessarily want to be there.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Can we say that Greeks looked forward to spending eternity with Hades? Or do we think of it differently because there is a negative connotation with the Underworld because of the Christian view of hell that has been perpetuated onto these older views of the afterlife? Or for that matter other cultures' beliefs of punishment of those that did not lead a good life and did not pay respect to the gods.
Hello Rhonda, it struck me that the christian hell is really hot and spicey, but the greek hell is dreary (as Isis says). So it's not just that they're both begative - we still see them as different. I guess we still see something truly greek here.
On the rape and abduction - thanks, I always avoid noticing that that's what's going on in a lot of the old stories. I just mentally skip over it. I'm glad you've pointed it out.
 

Olsen

Member
The story says that after Hades abducted Persephone, Demeter caused a terrible drought that determined Zeus to bring Persephone back, but she was obliged to spend half of the year in the underworld. I've always kind of wondered why Demeter accepted these half-measures. Why did she compromise? Couldn't she continue the drought until Hades released her daughter for good?
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member

The story says that after Hades abducted Persephone, Demeter caused a terrible drought that determined Zeus to bring Persephone back, but she was obliged to spend half of the year in the underworld. I've always kind of wondered why Demeter accepted these half-measures. Why did she compromise? Couldn't she continue the drought until Hades released her daughter for good?
I believe when Hades split the earth in two to abduct Persephone, he believed he was successful in doing so away from prying eyes, but the sun god, Helios, noticed. It was only when Demeter began to mourn over her daughter, causing the great drought, that Helios shared with Zeus what he saw, and Zeus demanded Hades to return Persephone to her mother.

Meanwhile, well imprisoned with Hades, Persophone, in her own distress, refused to eat anything, despite Hades's attempts to get her to do so. But when Hermes arrived to to take her back to the surface, Hades made one more offer of a pomegranate seed which Persephone at last accepted. It is because of this that Persephone has to return to the underworld once a year. Eating food from another realm, requires you to return to that realm; some kind of bond.

C. S. Lewis uses this same rule when the white witch feeds Edmund Turkish delight while in Narnia, forcing him to return later on with his siblings. He can't stay outside of Narnia for too long, otherwise he will get ill.
 

Isis

Member
I never got the impression that eating the Turkish Delight really forced Edward to return with the others, just that it enticed him to because it was so good.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member




Meanwhile, well imprisoned with Hades, Persophone, in her own distress, refused to eat anything, despite Hades's attempts to get her to do so. But when Hermes arrived to to take her back to the surface, Hades made one more offer of a pomegranate seed which Persephone at last accepted. It is because of this that Persephone has to return to the underworld once a year. Eating food from another realm, requires you to return to that realm; some kind of bond.


Did any mortal get to eat ambrosia or drink nectar? I think there is some story of someone stealing some but I can't remember who or anything else.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member

Did any mortal get to eat ambrosia or drink nectar? I think there is some story of someone stealing some but I can't remember who or anything else.
I don't know any stories pertaining to the consumption of ambrosia or nectar, though I would not be surprised if there were any.
 

Olsen

Member
Eating food from another realm, requires you to return to that realm; some kind of bond.
Returning to Hades' realm is one thing, and being forced to stay there for six months every year is another. Does this "bond" mention for how long the person should stay on the other realm?

And, speaking of Demeter, if she possessed the power to make a terrible drought that not even Zeus could stop, then she certainly had enough power to cancel any silly, old rules regarding food consumption that Hades may have imposed. I mean, in her place, I would have said, free my daughter from that curse or else this drought never stops!
Every mortal would have died of thirst. Zeus wouldn't have wanted that. :p
 

Nadai

Active Member
In Edith Hamilton's Mythology Persephone loved Hades: Hades didn't steal her just because he wanted a wife he stole her because he fell in love with her. When he took her to the underworld he saw how unhappy she was and how much she missed her mother. In an attempt to console her he gave her beautiful gifts; she accepted the gifts but refused to eat. A boy, who incidentally was killed by Demeter, gave Persephone a pomegranate of which she ate six seeds, thus condemning herself to six months in the Underworld per year. Eventually, because of Hades' kindness, she began to fall in love with him and even began to look forward to their time together. Because of her gentle spirit she even began to gentle Hades' heart; it was Persephone who convinced Hades to allow Orpheus to have Eurydice back.
 

Caelus

Member
I think Hades is largely misunderstood by most folks. Yes he rules the Underworld, but merely by luck, or misfortune if you would have it that way. Hades is also probably the most powerful of all the gods. His power comes from the dominion of the dead which is forever growing, his power however is limited to the Underworld. Hades also has an incredibly stressful job, sheer logistics, not to mention that his domain is all that stands between Olympus and a second Titanmachy. He keeps those gates of Tartarus firmly locked. But he clearly has a softer side, the Underworld is not doom and gloom. The Elysian Fields were a beautiful place, reserved for the pure of heart, those that performed good and great deeds in their lives. Persephone was the final judge of who could enter that place. It's also noted that Persephone was much colder, as a personality, when ruling in the Underworld with her husband.

For my part, I've always interpreted the myth of Persphone's abduction as bad boy biker persuades hot virgin to leave home. Mother goes ballistic and starts destroying life, forcing Father to take action. Really when you think about it. Demeter was the antagonist of the tale. She destroyed countless lives for her own desires.

Finally, a nice modern portrait of our two lovers.
http://bad-luck-bree.deviantart.com/favourites/3676163#/d12mj8u
 

Nadai

Active Member
I think Hades is largely misunderstood by most folks. Yes he rules the Underworld, but merely by luck, or misfortune if you would have it that way. Hades is also probably the most powerful of all the gods. His power comes from the dominion of the dead which is forever growing, his power however is limited to the Underworld. Hades also has an incredibly stressful job, sheer logistics, not to mention that his domain is all that stands between Olympus and a second Titanmachy. He keeps those gates of Tartarus firmly locked. But he clearly has a softer side, the Underworld is not doom and gloom. The Elysian Fields were a beautiful place, reserved for the pure of heart, those that performed good and great deeds in their lives. Persephone was the final judge of who could enter that place. It's also noted that Persephone was much colder, as a personality, when ruling in the Underworld with her husband.

For my part, I've always interpreted the myth of Persphone's abduction as bad boy biker persuades hot virgin to leave home. Mother goes ballistic and starts destroying life, forcing Father to take action. Really when you think about it. Demeter was the antagonist of the tale. She destroyed countless lives for her own desires.

Finally, a nice modern portrait of our two lovers.
http://bad-luck-bree.deviantart.com/favourites/3676163#/d12mj8u[/quote]
I believe it was both Powell and Ovid who say that Pluto is the wealthiest God, even moreso thatn Jupiter. All precious metals and jewels: iron, gold, diamonds, metals that Vulcan uses to make Jupiter's thunderbolts, are in his domain. He holds the keys to death for mortals and immortals, the great Titan Gods are held in Tartarus. Translated from Latin, Pluto means wealth.
I always liked to think of Pluto as the nicer brother. It seemed to me that he did a much better job at ruling the Underworld than Jupiter. He was less subject to acts of malace. Jupiter whored himself out to anything with legs and did whatever he wanted without ever considering consequences. Pluto took one wife. There were a few instances where someone snuck into Hades, but aside from that, Pluto's dominion was always in order-much better god in my opinion.
 
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