Deity insecurity

[Isis]

The Greek deities always struck me as rather insecure. Whenever a mortal would claim to be better looking or more talented, the gods never failed to punish them for it. I know it's supposed to teach people humility, but to me it just highlights the gods' flaws.

 

[fibi ducks]

I read the book that became the film Goodfellas a while ago. (And a good read it was). So its an account of life new york organised crime by a guy who lived it and then sold his colleagues down the river. One thing he said was that the guys who were successfull were not the brightest, not the strongest, not the most talented. What they had was that they weere more ready than anyone else to use violence. Doesn't this look like the gods you have in mind?

But I think there was at least one goddess who wasn't like this - Hestia. Her name means (I think) hearth. Its said that she was once one of the 12 Olympians, but that she modestly gave up her place to Dionysus when he arrived from Asia. A long time ago she recieved proposals of marriage from both Apollo and Poseidon. Choosing either one would have begun a fight, and instead she vowed to remain always a virgin. In gratitude for keeping the peace on Olympus Zeus awarded her the honour of recieving the first offereing of any sacrifice. The first drips of juice on the fire from the meat are an offering to her. Anyone who stands at a hearth has her protection too. The peace of the space in front of the fireplace is her demand. This is one goddess I would like to get to know.

 

[LegendofJoe]

She was not ambitious either. When Dionysis rose to prominence, she gave up her seat to him and thus lost her position as one of the 12 Olympians.

 

[Libros]

Being one of the twelve Olympians wasn't necessarily something that benefited the gods themselves in the mythological context. It was the Greek's way of systematizing the pantheon to make it more orderly. But there's no evidence of a hierarchy of twelve tiers of power, or that being one of the 12 was any less important than a minor god.

Hestia represents the hearth, so she is near and dear to every Greek, and more necessary for survival than wine. She provides a roof over your head and an oven for your food. Water is more important for survival than wine. Poseidon was the god of the sea, but fresh water was ruled by the nymphs of individual fountains, springs, and ponds. Wherever you lived, the nymph who ruled your local source of drinking water was more vital than Poseidon.


There's also discrepancy over the lineup of the 12 besides Hestia and Dionysus. Other sources include Hades, Eros, Pan, Asclepius, etc.

But Hestia's lack of involvement in the myths speaks of her perceived weakness in adventure. She was never as fully developed a figure as the Olympians because she wasn't deemed important enough to go beyond the hearth, her immediate and most important function.

The insecurity of the gods stems from the three generations of succession that got them to Olympus. At any time there was a fear that they could be deposed. Athena came about from Zeus' fear that a son born to him would depose him. So a human who claimed to be better than a god was challenging his ability to rule, the very same thing Zeus did to Cronus, and so the human had to be punished. Certainly you can see it as a flaw, but it also emphasized justice and demonstrable might and confidence so that authority would never have to be challenged, respect would arise instead.

 

[Isis]

You bring up a good point, Libros; the fear of being deposed is a powerful motivator for their behavior.

I don't agree that it was justice, however. Look at Myrrha. Her mother said Myrrha was prettier than Aphrodite, so Aphrodite caused Myrrha to lust after her own father.

 

[Libros]

I mean the behaviour of the gods would inspire the people to be just and authoritative.

 

[greekgoddess31]

From all of the myths I have personally read, I get the feeling that the gods were pretty petty and they seem to me to be like bickering "rich kids" like Paris Hilton and the like.

 

[LegendofJoe]

They are all types of human failings, but writ large.

 

[Isis]

I'm sorry, Libros, I still don't see it. I see inspiring humans to be authoritarian, but not necessarily just.

LegendofJoe, it is always interesting to see a pantheon with human flaws, isn't it?

 

[Libros]

Part of the reason we can criticize these pantheons is that we're looking at them from a retroactive context, as well as comparing them to other religions that have also ceased to exist.

If we were living in ancient Greece, men (unfortunately mostly men) would be empowered by the tales of conflict that involved the gods. To them it wasn't insecurity, the emphasis was on the victory of Zeus over the old order, true justice triumphing over the barbarism of the Titans. It was a standard to live by, to aspire to. We men would not see Zeus as being insecure, rather his victories over his adversaries, not to mention his ability to sleep around and mostly get away with it, is demonstrative of his power and strength.

Today, he's certainly an insecure, unfaithful and misogynistic figure, but back then it was an expression of the authority of men. The bickering of the gods, and the conflicts amongst themselves, was seen as a sign of why humanity is vulnerable and should be just and authoritative to prevent these things from happening. Because where the gods are immortal and omnipotent, we are not; we can't resolve our own conflicts as easily. Justice comes from the resolution of conflict in your favour, and if you can exercise that, you are behaving as the gods, and being faithful.

If we expressed resentment towards the gods for this attitude and called them insecure and petty, we'd be tried and/or executed for heresy, and several notable philosophers were. This is a luxury we have today for living in a society which mostly does not tolerate certain commonplace attitudes of the Classical civilizations, like gender inequality and slavery.

Not to mention that the study of mythology is also a study of human attitude, anthropology and sociology besides history and stories. We're inclined to project our own opinions from this.

 

[LegendofJoe]

I'm sorry, Libros, I still don't see it. I see inspiring humans to be authoritarian, but not necessarily just.

LegendofJoe, it is always interesting to see a pantheon with human flaws, isn't it?

It is always interesting. I see it in so many mythologies. Ofcourse one of the exceptions is in Hebrew mythology, where Yahweh is perfect and just and is beyond reproach. If humans suffer it is completely it is our fault.
Some would say this is because Yahweh is the real deal. I see it as a unique invention of the ancient Hebrews. That is, we suffer not because both humans and gods sort of suck, but only humans suck at times and have to face Yahweh's anger. LOL
Sorry, I'm a bit of a religious cynic.

 

[Isis]

True, looking at it from modern times gives us a different perspective from the ancient Greeks.

LegendofJoe--They paint Yahweh as perfect, but he always struck me as rather jealous and angry too.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Everyone else has pretty much emphasized everything I could think to say. The fact is that none of us lived back in the days when Greek Gods were worshipped and the stories were written about them. These stories can make the gods seem petty now, but I really doubt they seemed that way to the Greeks at the time. They were powerful primarily because they could get away with enacting revenge and achieving everything they wanted, it wouldn't be seen as a sgn of weakness to the majority until much much later.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Everyone else has pretty much emphasized everything I could think to say. The fact is that none of us lived back in the days when Greek Gods were worshipped and the stories were written about them. These stories can make the gods seem petty now, but I really doubt they seemed that way to the Greeks at the time. They were powerful primarily because they could get away with enacting revenge and achieving everything they wanted, it wouldn't be seen as a sgn of weakness to the majority until much much later.

There is a book by Lefkowitz called Greek Gods, Human Lives. In it she tries to show that the gods are not the objects of ridicule that we think of today, but beings that were respected by the ancient Greeks. I did not read it yet but this is what I read it was about.

 

[LegendofJoe]

True, looking at it from modern times gives us a different perspective from the ancient Greeks.

LegendofJoe--They paint Yahweh as perfect, but he always struck me as rather jealous and angry too.

Yahweh freely admits he is a jealous God.
I'm not sure if you could be omnibenevolent and extremely jealous at the same time.
When preachers try to show God's softer side they like to talk about the New Testament.
When finger-pointing fundamentalists try to exhibit God's wrath, they gleefully go to such books as Deuteronomy.

 

[Rhonda Tharp]

There is a book by Lefkowitz called Greek Gods, Human Lives. In it she tries to show that the gods are not the objects of ridicule that we think of today, but beings that were respected by the ancient Greeks. I did not read it yet but this is what I read it was about.

Interesting, I'll have to check out her book. I read one by her about two years ago called "Women in Greek Myth." It was well researched. It was good for me to be reminded that 21st century eyes shouldn't judge people and events so harshly from the past.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Interesting, I'll have to check out her book. I read one by her about two years ago called "Women in Greek Myth." It was well researched. It was good for me to be reminded that 21st century eyes shouldn't judge people and events so harshly from the past.

Interesting. I also read another one by her called Not Out of Africa. It was an attack on ethnocentric history, and how history, like science, has to be based on evidence and not on what makes people feel good.