Cinematic greek mythology timeline

Kurvos

New Member
Recently, I've been realizing how you could work up a timeline continuity with the newer modern day Greek Mythology movies. I'll share with you an image of an example for a timeline I have in my mind to showcase what I'm thinking:

Cinematic Greek Mythology Universe.png

Nothing final, just something to start out discussions with. And yes, I can defend my choices and where I put them in the timeline. You might say most Greek Gods died in Immortals. That seems to be the truth - but thinking about it, they kept it ambigious what happened there. The last shot we see is of Theseus fighting Titans alongside the Greek Gods, all alive and well. An intentional choice by the artistic pretentious director Tarsem, but anyway. And as for the Titans there? Well, could be something else than in the two "of the Titans" movies. They are clearly established to not be the Titans who are the ancestors/parents of the Greek Gods, such as Kronos in Wrath of the Titans obviously is.
And while 300 never shows us any of the Greek Gods but only mentions them, the supernatural elements of the movie/-s makes it apparent it is taking place in a mythological universe.
Then there's Troy, which I have heard is rather grounded (not seen it yet)... but hey, that doesn't exclude anything, right?

So yeah, any thoughts? Any movie/-s you would exclude? Any movie/-s you would include? Would you re-arrange the order?
 

Alejandro

Active Member
Hmmm... Well, I've only seen the trailers for Hercules but I've watched all the rest, and from what I've seen of all of them the only ones that come anywhere close to being true to the original mythology and that mythology's internal chronology would be Hercules and Troy (although I have strong negative sentiments towards the latter and am hoping that, of all the above, Hercules will redeem this genre of movies... though I have my cautious reservations to accompany this hope). The two 300 movies should most definitely come last because they are, as the Screen Junkies' Honest Trailers says of them, "based on a graphic novel based on an older film based on ancient Greek propaganda based on a true story" (>>
<<) which takes place in the 400s BC. The time-difference between Hercules and 300 is supposed to be 22 generations, since King Leonidas of Sparta was believed to have been a 22-generation descendant of Herakles [Hercules]. Alexander III the Great of Makedonia, who lived about a hundred years after Leonidas, is supposed to have been a descendant of both Herakles and Akhilleus [Achilles] (the latter played by Brad Pitt in Troy).

It's kinda difficult to definitively fit the last 3 movies in your timeline into this mythology's chronology because of how much they deviate from the original myths. Perseus, the same character from Clash & Wrath of the Titans, is supposed to have been an ancestor - both great-grandfather and great-great-grandfather - of Herakles, but in the movies he has, or so it appears, only one son named Heleios, who definitely was a son of the original Perseus but who is not one of the ancestors of Herakles. So that's one problem: If Perseus doesn't father the sons Alkaios and Elektryon then the grandfather and father (respectively) of Herakles' mother Alkmene... never existed. Another problem is that Zeus dies in Wrath of the Titans a few generations before he is supposed to sire Herakles, so basically neither of the hero's parents can exist in the narrative world which Wrath ends things up in.


Finally, Immortals (sigh... a movie 22 million times worse than Troy) is supposedly about the hero Theseus, who was a contemporary of Herakles, although, again, since several of the gods who play key roles as characters, parents and ancestors in the events which take place at Troy are now dead according to Tarsem... But then again the only deity who ever appears in the movie Troy is an old-lady version of Akhilleus' mother Thetis, so maybe if we use the movies strictly then that's not a problem, since by my reckoning your timeline should be as follows (ignoring the problems created by dead and dying deities in any of these flicks):

Clash of the Titans ➜ Wrath of the Titans ➜ Hercules ➜ Immortals ➜ Troy ➜ 300 ➜ 300: Rise of an Empire
 

Kurvos

New Member
I think you're being absurd, Alejandro. The biggest problem with everything you say here (to me) is that you're being a very biased purist. These are adaptations - of course they are going to differ from the original Mythology. If you can't handle and deal with and accept the fact that the movies deviate from the old (and rather outdated) tales, then please don't try to discuss this further with me. Yes, I do admit - some changes might have been pointless. But did I talk about this? Did I say I wanted to discuss how much or little they deviate from the source material? If that's a problem for you - then why do you not instead suggest an alternate timeline with different movies, only keeping Troy and possibly Hercules?
This is my timeline continuity I came up with. Do I seriously need to tell you that you can NOT ignore the problems created by dead and dying deities? Unless you can retcon it and make it work in - which you do not seem to care about even the slightest bit - then don't alter the timeline after the original mythos' timeline. It's like if I would have altered the Marvel Cinematic Universe's timeline after the Marvel comics. You just don't do that. No disrespect meant, but you need to understand how an adaptation works.
I've read most of the stories. I know them. But it's impossible to alter them into fitting into the source material. I just think it's nice with the idea of having a timeline continuity out of what we've gotten. I view and judge the movies as their own things, and I try to work in a timeline that makes sense out of it. In almost every single one of the movies minus Hercules, they refer to and mention Hercules as a legend, someone who has been around for long. And lots of Gods are stated to be permanently killed off in Wrath of the Titans. I want to be able to view the movies as a marathon experience - it makes it an amazing adventure.

No offense, but you seem incapable of thinking outside the box from what you now told me. :/ But trust me, I AM glad we finally get a Hercules movie seemingly more accurate to the mythos than before - since I think the 12 labors being canon is important for his character, and so are his huge muscles. Not to mention, he is finally not caucasian, which always bothered me about other versions (especially seeing him as a ginger in Disney's movie, that was just... stupid).
But I don't know, maybe you know things I should know but haven't looked up properly. I do appreciate you gave me a lengthy and proper response at the very least. I'm sorry if I seem rude with what I say to you.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
Good grief, man! It's only my opinion based on what I know! & I thought - but maybe I misunderstand - you wanted other people's opinions... Anyway: use it, don't use it. If it's absurd & too inside-the-box for you that's perfectly alright & it's your right to express your opinion. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning for the timeline you've created & I'm not in any way trying to say that you can't have it however you want it for whatever reason. They're just movies & myths so... chill, dude :eek::oops:

You asked: I simply answered. Or at least I think that's what I did... but I've been wrong about many things a lot so... Well, enjoy. Peace.
 

Kurvos

New Member
I apologize. I was being rude, I'm sorry. I appreciate you wanted to share your opinion. I guess I didn't know what kind of response I would get? Quiet frankly, I went here because I can't find anyone anywhere to discuss this with. So... out of being inexperienced, I think I therefor do not know properly how to discuss it with people. Again, I am very sorry.
I'm not entirely sure though on how to specify my reasonings with this timeline, other than what I have already explained. Maybe if you asked me questions, it would help?

I just think Clash and Wrath of the Titans gives a fitting conclusion to an era of mythology being alive, seeing all the things happening there, such as Gods dying. And there's something more "modern" and youthful about this depiction of Perseus compared to all the other Greek heroes we see in the other movies. And I think it's fitting to throw in the Spartans and their era after the Trojan War but before Theseus' time. The Trojan War is like a perfect establishment of how the wars and battles were in ancient Greece - so right after that, I think it's perfect to show the extreme brutal ruthless nature of the Spartans, and how the things escalate around those storylines. And since we will have the Hercules movie establishing Gods and Demi Gods, and Troy is more grounded and "realistic", it's only fitting to then see someone pose as a pseudo-God as Xerxes. And then to have him being proven wrong to be a God makes people more sceptical and cynical on Gods existing - which is what leads us to Immortals, where we see them having that mindset, learning the Gods are real.
And then from having the Gods fully established in Immortals, we can then have at least a LITTLE more background on them prior to watching the "of the Titans" movies.

I really do hope we can forgive and forget and discuss this further - I misjudged you, and it was closeminded and unfair of me. You seem like an interesting person... so once again, I deeply apologize for being rude.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
No problemo. I get that you feel quite strongly about this stuff, which is kool :) & I completely understand not having much opportunity to discuss this sort of thing in general (coz it's usually people like us in forums like this who think about these things this much :confused:). I was basing my revision of your timeline on the original myths, which, from what you've said, I see, is largely different from the new construction you're interpreting from the events in these recent movies. I would not have thought to string them together this way and to place the mixture of ancient Greek history and myth into a type of alternate universe where the timeline is based mostly on the narrative world and ideologies of the movies (rather than, e.g., a more strict chronology of events like I was positing). Interesting idea.

Oh, & I don't know what you think about the movie Immortals itself but it was just difficult for me to get past the world which the movie takes place in. I actually like the main actor (just not in this movie!), I think Tarsem's designs are usually quite interesting, plus some of the action is very kool, hyper-stylised choreography and animation, but overall it came out as a huge mess. But! again: my own bias and preferences are at work here (as with anyone, I guess). The person with whom I went to watch it loves it & thinks it's amazing cinema, which was a weird experience indeed. By the way, speaking of the Marvel universe, I do prefer truth to source material but what Marvel has done with Norse mythology is extremely cool. It would be interesting to see some motion picture adaptations of their interpretations of how the Greek and Norse mythologies interact with each other in that universe.

Back to your idea: Maybe you should also think about fitting in other, older movies. Most of the movies which do stick closer to the original stories (but have lower production values :() are straight-to-video or TV movies, usually miniseries like Fuel Entertainment's 2003 Helen of Troy. Others you may want to consider: Hallmark's 2000 Jason and the Argonauts (or the older, 1963 cinema version of the same name, but I haven't seen either of these) and the same company's 1997 The Odyssey. I don't know if you'd want to deal with Arnold Schwarzenegger's 1969/1970 Hercules Goes to New York :D I've avoided mentioning the original Ray Harryhausen Clash of the Titans since you seem to be focusing on the new storyline which is quite different from the 1981 film's events.

By the way, about Hercules being a "ginger" in the Disney rendition of his story, the Greek philosopher Xenophanes writes about Thracians being typically pale and red-haired. Maybe Disney's Hercules had a bit of Thracian ancestry... Wait: both his parents were Greek deities in that picture so... never mind :rolleyes: & yes: very exciting that The Rock is Hercules in this upcoming movie. Hope it's good!
 

Kurvos

New Member
Man, I feel so much more relaxed now. ^^; I promise and swear to not go "steamy" like that again. I think it's my own fault - I usually have prejudice about strangers online, since... let's face it, most people online are idiots. Either way, I really truly do see it from your point of view too now. Of course one should keep the source Mythology in mind, and not mess around with it too much. I guess it's all relative. But yeah, I tend to view things these ways. :) See, I always prefer things sharing universes than keeping it separated from each other. I love world-building, you know? So I guess it therefor comes natural to me to try to then rewatch them and think of how they could fit in here or there. I can't help it, I think it's really fun. :D

Oh, I love discussing movie opinions. ^^ As for Immortals... well, I guess I have mixed feelings towards it. I love most of the visuals, I think the story is fine for what it is, and I really do enjoy it... but the way the sets are makes everything feel strangely isolated. And I don't get the point of creating new types of Gods trapped in a cage and calling them "Titans" even though I seriously doubt the actual Titans like Kronos and Gaia are in there. And... why not give us an actual Minotaur and an actual Labyrinth? Instead we have these isolated places as said, and a big guy with a bullhead-helmet thingie attached to him. What's the point in making it more "grounded" with the Minotaur when you have the Gods in the movie anyway? Also, I'm not a fan of making the Gods look like young pretty people.

Oh, it's interesting you bring it up. I won't lie - the movies I pick are based out of my own bias a bit. XP It's not really about these ones being high-budget blockbusters in specific. But you see... I'm a very visual guy. I admire when a movie has no limits in using what it can - CGI included. So when I then include something with stop-motion monsters in it and such? It just gets weird and inconsistent.
I wish I could have included Odyssey or Jason and the Argonauts though - the movies I have are seriously lacking any kind of adventure over seas to go from island to island. I really truly do hope they could make a new Jason and the Argonauts movie. And as for Odyssey? Trust me, I've considered including it to this list... twice. But first of all, the events there at the start contradicts what happens in the movie Troy. Not to mention, I really hate the ending to that movie. I know it's a part of the mythos (if I recall correctly, at least), but I think it's downright disturbing to see Odysseus who's supposed to be the hero of the movie brutally murder all those guys just because they are greedy assholes... and he still views himself as a pure hero. It's disturbing to me.
Aaaaand of course, you might wonder what I think about Troy? Well, truth be told, I haven't watched it yet. I will very soon have it on DVD, I will give it a watch when I have. The reason I haven't seen it yet is because I've been really pissed off about something I see as homophobic. Yeah, you probably know - in the Mythology, Achilles and Patroclus are lovers. But then again, it's not stated clearly - mostly hinted at... so at the same time, I guess I can't blame the director for doing so. Especially since we still struggle with gay acceptance in mainstream movies. I will give it a chance and take it for what it is - I've heard it's good.

Let's talk as little about the Disney's Hercules movie as possible. XD LOL I mean, seriously... that movie makes it clear to me - Greek Mythology should NEVER be catered to children. But I do too look forward to the Hercules movie with Dwayne Johnson... really, really much. It feels like a dream coming true - can only hope it delivers. The trailer got me incredibly hyped.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
I usually have prejudice about strangers online, since... let's face it, most people online are idiots.
Well it is true that any moron can post online, you won't get much of that on this forum at all. We're all mythology loving poindexters in this corner of the internet. ;)

E. M.
 
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Myrddin

Well-Known Member
I would like to make the point that the movies in which you (Kurvos) are attempting to place chronologically are not all sequels and prequels, which makes it rather difficult; whatever way you may look at it, there will unfortunately be inconsistencies. For example, with Immortals as a standalone, and ...of the Titans movies only related to each other, I'm sure whatever order you place them one thing or another will be out of whack. I certainly see why you would disclude Percy Jackson and the Olypians: The Lightning Thief. That movie is out of whack with all the rest, it just plain doesn't work - I find it very bothersome, too. Creatures around that shouldn't be, yadda yadda yadda.

Personally, the idea that gods could die is ... unfathomable. They're immortal, in both meanings of the word; the idea is they live forever and cannot bne killed. If there's one thing Marvel got right, it's that when it came to the villainous Loki, rather than kill him, Thor more simply stopped him; threw him away somplace where he couldn't cause any more trouble. Because being a god, he cannot be killed

E. M.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
See, I always prefer things sharing universes than keeping it separated from each other. I love world-building, you know? So I guess it therefor comes natural to me to try to then rewatch them and think of how they could fit in here or there. I can't help it, I think it's really fun. :D
I understand what you mean -- it is fun to consider how things might fit together; but again, it's just difficult with movies which aren't really meant to be put together like that.

World building is very fun, agreed. I have started to cartograph my own for a horror/fantasy novel series. I've got one map nearly done, in fact. Definitely, definitely fun.

E. M.
 
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Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Let's talk as little about the Disney's Hercules movie as possible. XD LOL I mean, seriously... that movie makes it clear to me - Greek Mythology should NEVER be catered to children. But I do too look forward to the Hercules movie with Dwayne Johnson... really, really much. It feels like a dream coming true - can only hope it delivers. The trailer got me incredibly hyped.
Agreed. Let's leave Disney's Hercules out. Last I mention it, promise. Mythology is like fairy tales, I guess. They never were intended for children. Myth even more! They are a violent group of stories.

I saw the trailer for the new Hercules. It got me hyped, too.

Do you watch Grimm, Kurvos?

E. M.
 

Kurvos

New Member
I understand what you mean -- it is fun to consider how things might fit together; but again, it's just difficult with movies which aren't really meant to be put together like that.

World building is very fun, agreed. I have started to cartograph my own for a horror/fantasy novel series. I've got one map nearly done, in fact. Definitely, definitely fun.

E. M.
Both with this and the post of you before, it feels like you have the intention of slamming into my head the idea of these movies not meant to be put together. No offense, and all respect considered... but why are you interested in being here and discuss it if you are not willing to accept the idea of trying to draw a red string even though it never was the intentions of the developers? What you essentially is doing here is the "There is no Santa Claus!" logic. I know they weren't made with the intention to be put together - can't I for that have fun with escapism? Am I not allowed to see them as canon to one another? Please - for crying out loud, PLEASE... stop rubbing it in they aren't meant to be put together - it's just a needless statement I already know but breaks my heart to have it repeated like that. I'm not delusional, okay?
Yes, there are inconsistensies to be found inbetween the movies. But that's part of the fun to me, you have to understand this. I do the same thing with most of the animated DC Comics movies (minus a few like All-Star Superman and Justice League: New Frontier for obvious reasons). I love filling in the gaps for myself, retconning and such. Why not? Movie companies won't give us a shared Greek Mythology universe. At least not from what we know now. But hell, if they will, then by all means, I will be happy. But I work with what we get. I care about Greek Mythology a lot - but I also think movies works a lot better for me than books since I'm a very visual guy (of course though, I've read plenty of Greek Mythology).

Do you watch Grimm, Kurvos?

E. M.
No, I don't. And with all respect, I do not care for it from the premise alone. Nor do I see how it has anything to do with the topic at hand.
 

Kurvos

New Member
Oh, & I don't know what you think about the movie Immortals itself but it was just difficult for me to get past the world which the movie takes place in. I actually like the main actor (just not in this movie!), I think Tarsem's designs are usually quite interesting, plus some of the action is very kool, hyper-stylised choreography and animation, but overall it came out as a huge mess. But! again: my own bias and preferences are at work here (as with anyone, I guess). The person with whom I went to watch it loves it & thinks it's amazing cinema, which was a weird experience indeed.
I decided to quote this from you because I realized I have some things to add about Immortals. I can appreciate it as it's own stand-alone movie... but as an adaptation, I kinda hate it. I miss the actual Minotaur, I miss the Labyrinth, I miss Daedalus and his son Icarus. I mean... seriously. Imagine what an awesome and unique movie it could have turned out to become. But instead, we got a semi-decent 300 rip-off.
 

Alejandro

Active Member
But Kurvos, you even swore you wouldn't lose your cool again about all this stuff. Why all the fire? I thought we were all going to relax & just discuss differing viewpoints of the topic you've brought up. I really don't think that Myrddin's intention is to rub anything in your face to say that you can't create a universe in which all these movies fit together: he's just noting that it is difficult to do that since the movies weren't made that way in the first place. It's not much fun to have such a discussion if one can't disagree with any or all ideas posited by any participant in the exchange of ideas. Disagreements are what keep discussions going, but that doesn't mean there's necessarily any hostility in them. Nor does it mean: "You, there, stop thinking whatever you're thinking!" In fact if anything it means that the topic is interesting & you've made someone think about things in a different way, or else they wouldn't bother joining in the exchange at all.

The unfriendliness is gonna freak people out, man. (Or maybe I should speak for myself and say I'm scared to say anything which contradicts you or which fails to stay absolutely, strictly, on the topic of your choice, no deviation whatsoever :eek:)

Chill out, friend. No harm or unfairness is intended against you.

In the event that we don't see every single thing exactly the same way, we can agree to disagree. (Or... can we not? :oops:)
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
Thank you, Aleandro. I do not mean to burst anyone's bubble.

Both with this and the post of you before, it feels like you have the intention of slamming into my head the idea of these movies not meant to be put together. No offense, and all respect considered... but why are you interested in being here and discuss it if you are not willing to accept the idea of trying to draw a red string even though it never was the intentions of the developers? What you essentially is doing here is the "There is no Santa Claus!" logic. I know they weren't made with the intention to be put together - can't I for that have fun with escapism? Am I not allowed to see them as canon to one another? Please - for crying out loud, PLEASE... stop rubbing it in they aren't meant to be put together - it's just a needless statement I already know but breaks my heart to have it repeated like that. I'm not delusional, okay?
Yes, there are inconsistensies to be found inbetween the movies. But that's part of the fun to me, you have to understand this. I do the same thing with most of the animated DC Comics movies (minus a few like All-Star Superman and Justice League: New Frontier for obvious reasons). I love filling in the gaps for myself, retconning and such. Why not? Movie companies won't give us a shared Greek Mythology universe. At least not from what we know now. But hell, if they will, then by all means, I will be happy. But I work with what we get. I care about Greek Mythology a lot - but I also think movies works a lot better for me than books since I'm a very visual guy (of course though, I've read plenty of Greek Mythology).
No intention of any sort is meant. It as Alejandro said: I am merely noting the difficulties. Don't think that I don't have fun trying to draw a line between the movies either. I do! Please, continue having fun with escapism. I do not, and have not, thought at all that you are delusional. You seem very down to earth. Again, I'm not trying to rub anything in, and if it seemed like I was, I am sorry.

I have seen 300 since last we talked and kinda enjoyed it. Still have yet to see it's sequel. But will!

E. M.
 

Kurvos

New Member
Thank you, Aleandro. I do not mean to burst anyone's bubble.



No intention of any sort is meant. It as Alejandro said: I am merely noting the difficulties. Don't think that I don't have fun trying to draw a line between the movies either. I do! Please, continue having fun with escapism. I do not, and have not, thought at all that you are delusional. You seem very down to earth. Again, I'm not trying to rub anything in, and if it seemed like I was, I am sorry.

I have seen 300 since last we talked and kinda enjoyed it. Still have yet to see it's sequel. But will!

E. M.
Well, a lot of things have changed since then. I am not so sure I care for having a timeline of it anymore... mostly because it just can't work. But thanks for not thinking low of me. :)
 
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