Please tell me who this was...

fibi ducks

Active Member
I was thinking about old age, and who were the old people of the Greek myths. One person who came to mind was the one who asked for immortality and was granted it, but the catch was that he didn't stay young. So he got more and more decrepit without an end. Does anyone know who this was though?

I also thought of Nestor and Tireisias the seer.But not any old women.
Thanks, F.D.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
I have no idea who that could be, but somehow that reminds me of Dorian Grey, where his portrait aged while he stayed young. Talk about creepy.

E. M.
 

Caburus

Active Member
That could be the Greek myth of Tithonus. Eos, goddess of the dawn, asked Zeus to grant her lover, Tithonus, immortality, and they lived together in happy bliss. But she forgot to ask for him to be given eternal youth, and as he aged she started to avoid his company, although she still kept him in her house. Eventual he grew so old and feeble that she could no longer bear the sight of him, and had him locked in a room where he still lies, too weak with age to move, but eternally babbling and moaning for death to visit him. Alternatively, he shriveled up and became a cicado, whose voice, too, is calling for death to come and end his immortal misery.
Interestingly, Eos had a sister, Selene, whose own lover, Endymion, was granted eternal youth with immortality. But it came with an eternal slumber, and he sleeps forever in a cave, visited by Selene, goddess of the moon.

There is an old woman myth - the Cumaen Sibyl of Roman mythology. She was a prophetess, loved by Apollo, who offered her one wish if she would sleep with him. She took a handful of sand and asked to have as many years as grains of sand she held. Apollo granted this, but she later refused his advances, and so in anger Apollo allowed her to age but didn't grant her immortal youth. She grew more wrinkled and shriveled, until only her voice was left, which was kept in a wineskin.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
There is an old woman myth - the Cumaen Sibyl of Roman mythology. She was a prophetess, loved by Apollo, who offered her one wish if she would sleep with him. She took a handful of sand and asked to have as many years as grains of sand she held. Apollo granted this, but she later refused his advances, and so in anger Apollo allowed her to age but didn't grant her immortal youth. She grew more wrinkled and shriveled, until only her voice was left, which was kept in a wineskin.
There goes my fondness for Apollo. What a douche.

E. M.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
Ha ha, kept under a wineskin. Something about that is funny, maybe its not a respectfull place.
And i can hear a husband saying "there goes the Sibyl again" when he has another drink and
his long suffering wife complains. Brings the past to life that does.

Thanks Caburus, for that and the info on Tithonous.

FD
 

Alejandro

Active Member
The 2nd-century BC travelogue known as the Description of Greece describes the origin of the name of a certain town, which the travelogue’s writer Pausanias says came from Tanagra, a daughter of the Boiotian river Asopos, who lived in that town. As she approached an extreme old age, so the story went, Tanagra’s neighbours nicknamed her Graia, “Old Woman” (literally “Grey”), which name was eventually also given to the town.

Fibi, the dude you're thinking about is definitely Tithonos [Tithonus], who, by the way, was a brother of Priamos [Priam], who succeeded their father Laomedon as king of Troy, and thus was the ruler of the city during the Trojan War. Tithonos and Eos were the parents of Emathion, who became king of Egypt and Arabia, and of Memnon, who became king of Ethiopia, and supported his uncle Priamos and the city of Troy during the war. Emathion was killed in Libya by Herakles [Hercules] while Memnon was slain a generation later by Achilles in the Troad.

The Trojan War actually features a bunch of really old people, including the Trojan king Priamos himself, who by the time his kingdom was being besieged and destroyed by the Greeks was a frail, white-haired dude. His queen Hekabe [Hecuba] was similarly elderly at this point, as were the Elders of the royal court, among whom were Priamos’ older brothers Klytios, Lampos and Hiketaon, as well as their father’s cousin Antenor and his wife Theano (who was a sister of Hekabe). Even Hiketaon’s son Thymoites was old enough to be one of the city Elders by that point in time. Thymoites was married to his own aunt Killa (a daughter of Laomedon and sister of Hiketaon and Priamos), who I imagine would likewise have been old by this point. Prince Ankhises [Anchises] of Dardania, a kingdom neighbouring Troy, was a second cousin of Priamos, and his claim to fame is that he was the father, by the goddess Aphrodite, of Aeneas, whose descendants founded Rome. Ankhises was old and blind during the Greek invasion of Troy and so Aeneas had to carry him on his shoulders during their escape as the city was being razed.

Other old people of the Trojan War include Oukalegon [Ucalegon], another Trojan Elder; Prince Phoinix [Phoenix] of Ormenion, who helped to raise Achilles; Briseus and Khryses, the priests whose daughters, respectively Hippodameia Briseis and Astynome Khryseis, indirectly caused a row between Agamemnon and Achilles (which eventually resulted in the death of Achilles’ best friend Patroklos). King Oineus [Oeneus] of Aitolia was also very old during this war, as was Lairtes [Laertes], the father of Odysseus.

Some of the immortals were portrayed as aged beings, such as the Centaur Kheiron [Chiron]; the minor rustic god Seilenos; Kharon [Charon], the rugged grey boatman of the Underworld; the sea-gods known as the Old Men of the Sea, namely Nereus (father of the Nereides), his two younger brothers Phorkys (the father of many monsters, most famously the Gorgons and the Hydra) and Thaumas (the father of Iris and the Harpies), as well as the minor sea-god Proteus; the frail elderly goddesses called the Litai [Litae], who personified prayers of repentance; and Geras, the personification of old age itself, who was depicted in art as a tiny, shrivelled-up old man. Aion, the personification of eternity, was a form of the Orphic deity Khronos [Chronus, “Time”], who eventually developed in modern times into Father Time or “Old-Man Time,” who is represented as an old man with a long white beard and long white hair. This representation dates back to the ancient Egyptian poet Nonnos, who described him this way. From Aion we get the English word aeon [or eon].

The most notable [immortal] old women of Greek myth have got to be the triplet Graiai, “Grey Ones,” sisters of the three Gorgons, who were born wrinkled and grey-haired, with only one eye and one tooth to share among themselves. Ancient Greek and Roman writers also tell of an Indian tribe, whom the Greeks called the Mandoi (which in Latin is Mandi), dwelling in the foothills of Mt Himalaya, whose lifespan was so short that they grew old and wrinkled almost as soon as they were born.
 

Caburus

Active Member
Another oldie at Troy was Aethra, the mother of Theseus, who had been captured from Attica when Castor and Polydeuces rescued their sister Helen (whom Theseus had abducted) and took her back to Troy, where she lived as Helen's slave. She must have been well over 100 by this time. She later killed herself.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
As she approached an extreme old age, so the story went, Tanagra’s neighbours nicknamed her Graia, “Old Woman” (literally “Grey”), which name was eventually also given to the town.


i was just shopping in the supermarket. at the check out there was a magazine that must have been the one called 'Grazia', all fashion and sex secrets. the cover pic was of jennifer alston (the one who used to be in 'friends'), with her head in the way of the Z. quite funny in a myth nerd sort of way.

alejandro, i need to read your answer more carefully.
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
hi alejandro,
i read what you wrote more carefully. i hadn;t noticed that the stories were peopled by many old people as a norm.
what i mean is, i was thinking of people who might have stories about their being old, but when you point out so many old people in the iliad, i see the obvious - that its normal to have some old people around.
however, i will look up Geras when I get home.
and also, do you have any stories in your mind that have a sense of what it was like to get old, and what people felt about it, in those olden days?
thanks, FD
 

Alejandro

Active Member
Nope, I think you've pretty much got down the quintessential Greek myth regarding old age and aging, and that has to be the one about Tithonos; likewise the one Caburus mentions of the Cumæan Sibyl. Beyond that the most relevant ones I can think of are about Tanagra and the Mandoi.

The gods seem to have been enamoured by human youth, if we consider the myth of Tithonos (especially with Caburus' example distinguishing this from the myth of Endymion), and the story of Idas and Marpessa. Both the Messenian prince Idas and the god Apollon sought the affections of the beautiful Aitolian maiden Marpessa (who was a descendant of Endymion) and they fought over her until Zeus had to separate the two and make Marpessa choose between the two. Marpessa considered that Apollon, being immortally young, would one day discard her since her own youth would eventually fade away while Idas would grow old with her, so she chose the mortal prince over the immortal deity. In the Odyssey, after having been detained for several years on the island of Ogygia by the immortal sea-nymph Kalypso, Odysseus who has desired to return home to his wife Penelope and his kingdom on Ithaka Island is finally about to be released by Kalypso, who complains with some bitterness that a man could desire a mortal woman over an immortal goddess like herself. Odysseus responds to her by voicing his awareness that his wife is obviously neither as tall or beautiful as Kalypso, and that unlike this goddess, she is certainly growing old, but that his desire is for her and his own house nonetheless. And so he will bear the brunt of the journey home, even "if this or that divinity should shatter" his vessel "on the wine-dark ocean".

Further on what humans thought of old age, King Oidipous [Oedipus] of Thebes, when he was already past his prime, discovered that his wife Iokasta, upon whom he had also sired four children, was actually his own mother. Also in his youth he had killed his father, without knowing who the man was. So Oidipous now blinded himself and was languishing in his sightless old age in the Attic demos (a sort of municipality) of Kolonos. The playwright Sophokles (who himself was born at Kolonos) says that, upon observing this, the citizens of Kolonos exclaimed that the best thing that could happen to a human being is to never be born while the worst is to be old, in which state, they say, one is slow, joyless and lacking companionship. Old age, say the Kolonians, is "the crown of woes."

There is evidently a lost myth about an encounter between Geras, the personification of old age (from whom we get the English word geriatric), and the hero Herakles. The only information we have regarding this is some Attic Red Figure pottery depicting Herakles speaking with Geras and then, perhaps during the same conversation, battering Geras with his notorious club with one of his hands clamped down on Geras' head. Herakles once did wrestle against Geras' brother Thanatos (Death) and win, so it is reasonable to believe that Herakles battled against Geras and was victorious. But what does it mean to beat up old age? According to most accounts Herakles died a rather violent death at the age of 55, so Thanatos did eventually get him, moreover one could interpret this to mean either that he circumvented old age, or that he failed to achieve length of life. Maybe it’s all just a matter of perspective. Whatever the actual story there was, it reminds me of the story about the Norse god Thor being challenged to wrestle an old, bent-over giantess named Elli. All that Elli had to do in order to overpower Thor was place one of her hands on his shoulder and he fell to his knees, unable to raise a hand against her. He later was told that this giantess was actually old age, against which neither god nor human could compete (quite rather a different type of god from the Greco-Roman variety for sure).
 
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fibi ducks

Active Member
Nope, I think you've pretty much got down the quintessential Greek myth regarding old age and aging, and that has to be the one about Tithonos; likewise the one Caburus mentions of the Cumæan Sibyl. Beyond that the most relevant ones I can think of are about Tanagra and the Mandoi.

The gods seem to have been enamoured by human youth, if we consider the myth of Tithonos (especially with Caburus' example distinguishing this from the myth of Endymion), and the story of Idas and Marpessa. Both the Messenian prince Idas and the god Apollon sought the affections of the beautiful Aitolian maiden Marpessa (who was a descendant of Endymion) and they fought over her until Zeus had to separate the two and make Marpessa choose between the two. Marpessa considered that Apollon, being immortally young, would one day discard her since her own youth would eventually fade away while Idas would grow old with her, so she chose the mortal prince over the immortal deity. In the Odyssey, after having been detained for several years on the island of Ogygia by the immortal sea-nymph Kalypso, Odysseus who has desired to return home to his wife Penelope and his kingdom on Ithaka Island is finally about to be released by Kalypso, who complains with some bitterness that a man could desire a mortal woman over an immortal goddess like herself. Odysseus responds to her by voicing his awareness that his wife is obviously neither as tall or beautiful as Kalypso, and that unlike this goddess, she is certainly growing old, but that his desire is for her and his own house nonetheless. And so he will bear the brunt of the journey home, even "if this or that divinity should shatter" his vessel "on the wine-dark ocean".

Further on what humans thought of old age, King Oidipous [Oedipus] of Thebes, when he was already past his prime, discovered that his wife Iokasta, upon whom he had also sired four children, was actually his own mother. Also in his youth he had killed his father, without knowing who the man was. So Oidipous now blinded himself and was languishing in his sightless old age in the Attic demos (a sort of municipality) of Kolonos. The playwright Sophokles (who himself was born at Kolonos) says that, upon observing this, the citizens of Kolonos exclaimed that the best thing that could happen to a human being is to never be born while the worst is to be old, in which state, they say, one is slow, joyless and lacking companionship. Old age, say the Kolonians, is "the crown of woes."

There is evidently a lost myth about an encounter between Geras, the personification of old age (from whom we get the English word geriatric), and the hero Herakles. The only information we have regarding this is some Attic Red Figure pottery depicting Herakles speaking with Geras and then, perhaps during the same conversation, battering Geras with his notorious club with one of his hands clamped down on Geras' head. Herakles once did wrestle against Geras' brother Thanatos (Death) and win, so it is reasonable to believe that Herakles battled against Geras and was victorious. But what does it mean to beat up old age? According to most accounts Herakles died a rather violent death at the age of 55, so Thanatos did eventually get him, moreover one could that interpret this to mean either that he circumvented old age, or that he failed to achieve length of life. Maybe it’s all just a matter of perspective. Whatever the actual story there was, it reminds me of the story about the Norse god Thor being challenged to wrestle an old, bent-over giantess named Elli. All that Elli had to do in order to overpower Thor was place one of her hands on his shoulder and he fell to his knees, unable to raise a hand against her. He later was told that this giantess was actually old age, against which neither god nor human could compete (quite rather a different type of god from the Greco-Roman variety for sure).
seems to me that after the golden age of the sixties to eighties many are , in england at least, en route to an old age to be feared for poverty illness and often isolation. perhaps some ancient stories can prepare us for the worst. sounds like sophocles would be a good read for those in our english care homes. thanks. FD
 

fibi ducks

Active Member
i found this today:

"What life is there,what pleasure, without golden Aphrodite? May I die, as soon as I have no part in her ways. Stealthy wooing, lovers' gifts and lovers' union - these alone are flowers of youth worth plucking for man or woman. Once let old age come on, making a man evil and ugly at once, and heavy cares gnaw at the heart continually. No joy has he in seeing the sun's light, unhonoured by the young and despised by womankind. Thus bitter is old age, as the god hath willed.
Like are we to the leaves that flowery springtime bears, when swiftly they wax strong beneath the rays of the sun. Like them we enjoy for a span the flowers of youth, knowing from the gods neither good nor evil. But the black fates stand by, and one holds in hre hand the goal of bitter old age, the other that of death. Brief is the fruit of youth, no longer than the daily spread of the sunshine over the earth; but when once that springtime of life is past, then verily to die is better than life, for many are the ills that invade the heart."

This is a fragment from Mimnermos of Kolophon. I like it a lot, but am very glad that I don;t know anyone alive who talks like this - it would be a real bore to hear this all the time.
 

Caburus

Active Member
There is evidently a lost myth about an encounter between Geras, the personification of old age (from whom we get the English word geriatric), and the hero Herakles. The only information we have regarding this is some Attic Red Figure pottery depicting Herakles speaking with Geras and then, perhaps during the same conversation, battering Geras with his notorious club with one of his hands clamped down on Geras' head. Herakles once did wrestle against Geras' brother Thanatos (Death) and win, so it is reasonable to believe that Herakles battled against Geras and was victorious. But what does it mean to beat up old age? According to most accounts Herakles died a rather violent death at the age of 55, so Thanatos did eventually get him, moreover one could that interpret this to mean either that he circumvented old age, or that he failed to achieve length of life. Maybe it’s all just a matter of perspective.
Didn't Herakles encounter two goddesses during his youth, who gave him the choice of a short life of labour and fame, or a long life of pleasure but obscurity? Herakles chose the short life and fame, and hence his subsequent career. So the idea that he encountered and then vanquished Geras would make sense. Perhaps it was an alternative version of his choice.

The opposite to old age (Geras), is youth (the goddess Hebe), whom Herakles married when he reached Mount Olympus and became immortal. Hebe also served the Gods their divine ambrosia, which gave them immortal youth (much like Idunn gave the Norse gods apples that kept them youthful - there is a myth that Idunn was kidnapped by the giants and so the Norse gods started to grow old and gray until she was rescued).
 

Alejandro

Active Member
Ay, for sure, fibi, that Mimnermos fragment would be very depressing to hear from someone who meant it, even if it wasn't on a regular basis.

Caburus, that's kinda brilliant! Herakles' encounter with Geras definitely would make a lot of sense from that angle. Herakles is a very enigmatic character especially as pertains to his death and immortality. According the Odyssey, while he was living as a god on Mt Olympos he also existed in phantom form in the Underworld, hunting the dead animals and monsters there, in a weird double fate I've not heard of any other character in Greek mythology experiencing. The closest to this that I can think of is King Erulus of Præneste in Roman mythology, whose mother the Underworld goddess Feronia gave three souls and three pairs of arms so that his enemy King Evander of Pallantium had to kill him three times in order to vanquish him.

Conversely to the encounter the Norse gods had with old age, the gods of Hellas [ancient Greece], according to Hesiod's Theogony, had some reason (I can't imagine what) to hate or fear death, which comes off as extremely ironic in the passage in which Hesiod mentions this since he there refers to the Olympian deities as "deathless gods."
And there the children of dark Night [Nyx] have their dwellings, Sleep [Hypnos] and Death [Thanatos], awful gods. The glowing Sun [Helios] never looks upon them with his beams, neither as he goes up into heaven, nor as he comes down from heaven. And the former of them roams peacefully over the earth and the sea's broad back and is kindly to men; but the other has a heart of iron, and his spirit within him is pitiless as bronze: whomsoever of men he has once seized he holds fast: and he is hateful even to the deathless gods.
I wonder if they has a similar sentiment about Geras.
 

Nadai

Active Member
Pretty much all the immortals did something similar at one time or another, therefore all gods = douchebags.
All Olympians (except Hades). I don't think I'll ever be able to find fault with him. The Titans were pretty okay too, at least better than the Olympians. Hooray for the Golden Age.
 

Nadai

Active Member
There is the story of the old King Pelias and Medea. When Pelias refused to surrender his throne to the hero Jason his wife Medea, daughter of the sun god Helios, tricked his daughters into killing him. King Pelias' daughters were distraught because they saw how difficult a time their father was having as an old man. Medea told them that she could use a potion to turn their father young again. She took and old ram and cut it up into pieces, then boiled it in a pot with one of her potions. The ram magically returned to life and jumped out of the pot as a young ram again. So the girls went to their father and cut him up into pieces and put him into the pot, but Medea did not resurrect him so he died by his daughters' hands.
 

Myrddin

Well-Known Member
There is the story of the old King Pelias and Medea. When Pelias refused to surrender his throne to the hero Jason his wife Medea, daughter of the sun god Helios, tricked his daughters into killing him. King Pelias' daughters were distraught because they saw how difficult a time their father was having as an old man. Medea told them that she could use a potion to turn their father young again. She took and old ram and cut it up into pieces, then boiled it in a pot with one of her potions. The ram magically returned to life and jumped out of the pot as a young ram again. So the girls went to their father and cut him up into pieces and put him into the pot, but Medea did not resurrect him so he died by his daughters' hands.
Jason is not a hero. He's barely even an anti-hero. More like a bag of dicks.

That's horrible what Medea did! :eek: I don't remember the story of Jason very well; does she ever get her come-uppance?

E. M.
 
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